The “I” in Romans 7:14-25
“No part of Romans, . . . has been the object of so much scrutiny and the source of so much confusion as what Paul writes in [Romans] 7:14-25” (Richard Longenecker, NIGTC, The Epistle to the Romans, p. 652). With these words, Richard N. Longenecker in his new (and much anticipated) commentary on Romans dives into this difficult passage of Scripture. Since Longenecker’s commentary is “hot off the press,” I will examine his approach to these verses and use it, as well as contributions from others, as my basis for discussing Romans 7:14-25.
Two Approaches to Romans 7:14-25
Longenecker notes that there are two approaches to Romans 7:14-25. The first, which he labels, Traditional Understandings, proposes that the “I” is autobiographical, thus Paul is referring to himself. Some believe that Paul is speaking about his life under the law before he came to Christ, while others contend that Paul is speaking of the struggle experienced by the Christian whose dual nature consisting of The Spirit and the flesh battle against each other. Longenecker identifies a number of scholars subscribing to each group. The group arguing for Paul’s personal experience under the law includes “Origen and most of the Greek Fathers,” John Wesley, and more modern scholars such as C.H. Dodd and Doug Moo. Those who argue for Paul speaking about his own struggles as a Christian include “Augustine and the Latin Fathers,” as well as the Reformers Luther, Melanchthon, and Calvin, and modern scholars such as Cranfield, Dunn, Murray, Morris, and Barrett. What struck me about this list, and the reason I mention it here, is that the earliest interpreters understood Paul to be talking about his life under the law, not his struggle as a Christian. Longenecker does say, “most of the Greek Fathers,” took the view that Paul was speaking of his struggle under the law. The word “most” leaves some doubt, but does this mean that the view that Paul was talking about his struggle as a Christian, only originated with Augustine? Although one’s position on this subject must ultimately be decided by the text, the fact that earlier interpreter’s apparently did not understand Paul’s remarks in Romans 7 as referring to the Christian should at least provide a caution to later interpreters who take this view.
Although Longenecker favors the autobiographical use of “I” in Romans 7:7-13, he does not follow the “traditional understandings” noted above when it comes to Romans 7:14-25. Thus he explains a second way to view Paul’s use of “I” in Romans 7:14-25 known as a “Stilform of Speech and Writing” (italics original, p. 653). This can also be referred to as “Speech in Character” (see Stanley Stowers, A Rereading of Romans, pp. 16-21). In this case, the “I” is not autobiographical, but is a device that allows the hearer or reader to experience/identify with someone’s situation (according to Stowers, the person can be real or imaginary, p. 17). In such cases, the writer is seeking to communicate “a general truth” (Longenecker, p. 655). Longenecker points out that this device was a common way of communicating in Paul’s day. He references Jewish sources (including Philo and the Dead Sea Scrolls), as well as Greco-Roman sources (including Euripides, Ovid, and Quintilian) to illustrate this frequent usage of “I”. Most convincing, is the fact that Paul uses “I” this way in other letters, and it is clear in these contexts that his reference is not autobiographical. One example, found in Romans itself, is 3:7: “If the truth of God is enhanced unto his glory by my falsehood, why am I also still condemned?” It is clear in the context that Paul is not referring to himself, but to a hypothetical individual who is raising this objection. Other passages include 1 Corinthians 6:15; 13:1-3; and Galatians 2:18. Therefore, regarding Romans 7:14-25, Longenecker argues convincingly (in my opinion) that Paul’s usage of “I” is not autobiographical, but rather a literary device common in the ancient world used to express a general truth.
The Identity of the “I” in Romans 7:14-25
Whether one believes that Paul is using “I” autobiographically, or as “Speech in Character,” we are still left with the question of identifying who he means. Is Paul describing the Christian, the Jew under the law, or all people in this passage? Doug Moo’s comments are appropriate here: “Debate over Romans 7 is so lively precisely because each view has some points in the text in its favor. There is no slam dunk in the interpretive game here. So the best interpretation will be the one that produces the best overall fit with all the evidence” (Douglas J. Moo, Encountering the Book of Romans, p. 109).
One of the most popular identifications of the person in Romans 7:14-25 is that he/she is a Christian. Note in my opening paragraph above how many theologians over the centuries have advocated this view. This view is frequently subscribed to by many Christians who quote it as evidence that they still struggle with the flesh. Although it is true that Christians must “reckon themselves as dead” (Rom. 6:11), I do not think that Paul is referencing the inner struggle of a Christian. In fact, in my opinion, whoever the person is that Paul is describing, the one thing that is for certain is that it is not a Christian. I am in agreement with Moo when he observes that the description of the person in Romans 7:14 “unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin,” is “an impossible state for any believer.” Furthermore, Moo notes that being “ ‘a prisoner of the law of sin’ (7:23), . . . contradicts the situation of all Christians, who have been ‘set . . . free from the law of sin and death’ (8:2)” (Moo, p. 109). There are, in fact, a number of contrasts between the Christian and the person described in Romans 7:14-25. The chart below notes the contrasts that Paul makes in chapters 6-8. One side of the chart shows the characteristics of the person Paul calls “I,” while the other side shows characteristics of the believer.
Another excellent chart along these same lines can be found in Craig Keener’s commentary on Romans. Keener states, “. . . the contrasts with the larger context are simply too great to fit the Christian life as he describes it, even had Paul thought himself an unusually weak Christian” (Craig S. Keener, NCCS, Romans, p. 92). Quoting Moo again, he states, “. . . I admit that verses 15-20, taken on their own, could describe the struggle with sin that even the best Christians continue to have. But what we must recognize is that the struggle depicted in these verses issue in defeat: imprisonment by the law of sin. This is not the outcome of the Christian’s struggle with sin” (p. 111).
Returning to Longenecker’s view, he too does not see the individual in Romans 7:14-25 as a Christian, especially in lieu of what Paul says in Romans 8. For Longenecker this person is a picture of “. . . all people who attempt to live their lives by their own natural abilities and acquired resources, apart from God” (p. 673). Longenecker’s references to Greco-Roman writings that refer to the problem of self-mastery makes a strong case for his argument that Paul’s “Speech in Character” fits “all people.” Some, like Moo, however, argue that the person Paul is referring to is “an unregenerate Jew under the law” (p. 110). I am yet undecided whether the person Paul describes is Jewish or refers to all. The context of the law in Romans 7 causes me to lean toward Moo’s interpretation of the unregenerate Jew, but I am also inclined toward Longenecker’s view because the overall context (going back to Romans 5:12-21) has to do with all who are in Adam. Furthermore, as Longenecker points out, the struggle to want to do right but to do the wrong is a universal human struggle, it is not simply the problem of the Jew under the law. And so the jury remains out on this point as far as I am concerned. I would welcome any insights from those who read this article. Please feel free to leave your comments below.
Conclusion: Who the “I” is Not
In my teaching of Romans over the years, I have found chapters 5-8 to be particularly important when it comes to believers understanding what Christ has accomplished for them and who they are in Christ. The section begins with Paul saying, “Therefore, having been justified by faith. . .” (5:1) and he continues by detailing the benefits of the Christian’s justification. In my experience, this is a message that Christians in the 21st century need. We need to know that we’ve been transferred from the realm of Adam where sin and death reign, to the realm of Christ where grace, righteousness and life reign (5:12-21). We need to hear that grace is more powerful than sin, but also that people under grace are an obedient people. We need to know that Christ has won a decisive victory over sin and in our identification with him in baptism, we too have died and been raised to walk in newness of life (6:1-6). We who are redeemed and yet feel so powerless against sin, need to know that sin has lost its power over us (6:17). We especially need the good news that there is a solution to the human dilemma of wanting to do what’s right, but instead doing what’s wrong. Paul declares that Jesus has delivered us from this body of death and that he has set us free from the law of sin and death (7:25; 8:2). I still have a number of questions about Romans 7:14-25, but one thing I am convinced of is that it is a mistake for a Christian to identify with the person Paul describes there. I am not the “I” of Romans 7:14-25. In Christ, we have all been justified, therefore our lives are not one of torment like the individual Paul describes. Instead “we have peace with God,” (5:1) and an absolute assurance that “we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us” (8:37).
For other thoughtful articles on Romans 7, see mydigitalseminary.com at this link.
Hey Randy, great post! I lean more towards the unregenerate Jew apart from Christ. Paul’s intro to the section referring to “brothers”, aka “those who know the law” seems that he’s referring to those who previously lived “under” the law, that is, fellow Jews. Also the allusions to Israel’s reception of the law at Sinai (“when the law came, I died”). Although, there are allusions to Adam in this passage too, so perhaps the logic goes like this:
The “I” is a Jew finding her/himself identified with idolatrous Israel who were killed upon reception of the law; an Israel who thus finds herself in bondage to sin; that is, “in Adam”, with the rest of humanity.
What do you think?
Hi Lindsay,
Thanks so much for your input. As I mentioned in the post, I do lean toward the “Jew” interpretation as well. As you note the references to “those who know the law” as well as the fact that it is clearly the Mosaic law which is in view in chapter 7, seems to point in that direction. Many do see the “I” in Romans 7:7-13″ as a reference to both Adam and Israel, so you’re attempt at fitting both of these together is very interesting to me.
There is something to Longenecker’s argument that also pulls me in that direction. I think it is the evidence he amasses from the Greco-Roman literature that shows this was a common theme in Paul’s day. The audience for Romans is also more Gentile than Jewish, so I can’t see Paul simply saying, “Hang on guys while I talk to the Jews and I’ll get back to you in the next chapter.” In other words, I think the struggle Paul relates would be just as understandable to a Gentile believer. We could also say that “those who know the law” could well include Gentile believers. Some no doubt attended synagogue, at least before becoming Christians, and Paul frequently assumes a knowledge of the law and OT in general when writing Gentile believers (Corinthians, Galatians, etc.). So basically, I’m still sitting on the fence on this one. I want to have my cake and eat it too!
As you well know, to lean toward the unregenerate state of Paul in vv 14-25 is almost anathema in some circles. I am Southern Baptist and have found this to be true. Seems to me that everyone who hold to Paul’s speaking as a Believer seem to be arguing for their ‘right’ to sin regardless of the Christ who abides within…..Jesus is Lord.
Thanks for your comments Bob. God bless!
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? Christians are referred to as “brethren” throughout the NT. But whether they are Jews or Gentiles doesn’t matter to this illustration. Even Gentiles know that the law can’t chase you any further than the grave. And that is true of marriage, the illustration Paul is using to prove his point. In addition, in Romans 7:4 (Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ…) he addresses “brethren” and declares they are now dead to the law by the body of Christ. Unregenerate Jews don’t fit that description at all. So it seems clear he’s not talking about the Jews in particular. This is a discussion of law in general and how it has jurisdiction over the living, and not over the dead. That paves the way for his main point – that the believer is dead to sin and free from it in this life. The horsepower behind that starts in 7:4 where he declares, “ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ”. It is through our baptism into Christ’s body (into his exact, literal experience) that we are freed from the law. “For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5). The law didn’t die in Paul’s illustration. Its obviously the old husband that died – a parallel to our fleshly bodies. We were crucified with Christ, died, were buried, and were raised the 3rd day. I realize that our experience tells us differently, but this is absolute literal, factual truth in God’s reckoning. Thus Paul tells us in Romans 6:11 to, “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Likewise – just like Christ was dead – we are to believe the same is true of ourselves. Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.” And that’s the good news in the book of Romans.
Hi, Randy. I just now read your old article regarding the question of who Paul is talking about in Romans 7:14-25. I’m wondering if you have had any subsequent insights into this question. I am in the process of writing a book regarding Union with Christ and have done extensive study on Romans 6 through 8 over the last 35 years. I have recognized the difficulties with understanding that passage for a long time. But I do believe that Paul is speaking about himself and his state as a Christian, describing the everyday battle against the flesh this side of heaven, even though he goes on in chapter 8 to tell about the path of sanctification and victory over sin.
Just to hold your interest, I want to point out something you said in this article that I don’t believe is consistent with other things that Paul has to say. Specifically, your (and others’) observations regarding Paul’s statements of struggle with sin, that this does not describe the victory a Christian has. You said, “But what we must recognize is that the struggle depicted in these verses issue in defeat: imprisonment by the law of sin. This is not the outcome of the Christian’s struggle with sin”. The passage that not only refutes that argument, but sheds light on Romans 7 is in Galatians 5 where Paul says, certainly talking about the Christian who is promised victory in the day-to-day battle, “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.” Gal 5:16-17 NASB
Here in Galatians Paul is certainly talking to believers who can walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and yet he is describing that battle with the flesh that we all daily face.
I think that one of the most important evidence has in Romans 7 that Paul is talking about Christian Living is in the fact that he repeats the same statement twice within 4 verses in 7:17 and 20: “If I do that which I do not wish to do, it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells in me.” It has been remarkable to me and somewhat humorous that some of the greatest commentators stumble over these verses and really don’t want to address them! Lloyd-Jones Does a pretty good job, however! How could Paul be describing anyone but a Christian when he states that it is no longer “I” who sins. To find an exegesis of that statement that is both thorough and honest is a practically impossible task!
To cut to the chase since I am commenting on a three-year-old article that you may never read, here is what I believe is key in Romans 6 through 8: As John MacArthur has stated in the past, Christians are brand-new creatures with a righteous nature who are temporarily living in dead, unredeemed bodies. The man in Christ has one nature, not two. This is clearly evidenced by the fact that Paul says we are new creatures where the old things have passed away. (2Cor5:17 It is further highlighted by the fact that he says “it is no longer I who [sins]”. That is absolutely key. And so, Paul is attempting in Romans 6 through 8 to describe WHO the Christian is, both ontologically AND experientially as you would observe him. When he talks about having this body of death, and being sold under sin doing what he doesn’t want to do, he is describing what you experience everyday if you are in fact fighting the fight to put sin to death through the spirit. It is a vicious fight.
But Paul also does what so many commentators and teachers do not do in their imbalance of presenting the nature of the believer: he is fleshing out (no pun intended) who the believer is, both in the inner man and temporarily and experientially as he walks the Earth in an unredeemed body where “the law of sin” still roams about in his “members”.
It is a complicated task Paul has to describe this to mere mortals. Most everybody misses the fact that he is describing the believer and the “I” involved at different levels,
from different viewpoints, throughout Romans 6 through 8. On the one hand, he wants us to know that ontologically, by nature now, we are brand new creatures whose “I” is no longer the source of sin. Yet on the other hand he talks about “I” as you would see me in my day-to-day struggle. This is absolutely essential if you are ever going to make your way through the maze of detailed description Paul offers for the amazing mystery of the man in Christ, still living in an unredeemed body.
One quick support of what I’m describing regarding Paul’s use of words that seem contradictory but can be untangled is what he says about us being IN the flesh. This relates to something you said above. In Romans 8:9 he says that we are “no longer in the flesh,” yet in Galatians 2:20, that wonderful passage about how we are now to live the Christian Life, he says “the life I now live IN the FLESH I live by faith in the Son of God.” So Romans 8 says you’re not in the flesh, but Galatians 2:20 says you ARE in the flesh. The solution to this is that in Romans 8 he’s talking about ontology–who and where the new man is. In Galatians 2:20 he’s talking about his day-to-day journey and battle living in that unredeemed body where the law of sin is still working. If you understand this it solves a lot of questions, a lot of the mystery!
God bless.
7:14 We are all OF flesh who have ever lived, especially Jesus. The thing is that in R7 the conflict is between his mind and his flesh. In Galatians it is between the Spirit and the flesh. The mind will always lose the struggle (unregenerate), the Spirit (regenerate) will always win, there being a submission to the Spirit. 8:9 “you are not in the flesh” means as according to 8:13 “if you are living according to the flesh”. GAL, “the life I now live in the flesh” means the broader understanding of “flesh” (which is quite broad, basically ‘Adamic nature’ or even Jewish lineage)(or body). To be “IN” the flesh 8:9 is to live ‘from’ the flesh, different to the GAL flesh as meaning our “tent’ or house for our spirit, or the Spirit of Christ. 7:18 ‘nothing good dwells in my flesh’ or in anybody’s flesh, as in natural nature, but then we ‘participate in the divine nature’. Renewal of our nature.
Paul uses a rhetorical style of writing in which he asks a question, gives an emphatic reply, “Certainly not!”, gives an answer, and finishes with an explanation. Romans 7:13 gives the question “Has then what is good become death to me?”, reply “Certainly not!”, and answer “But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful”. Romans 7:14-25 give the explanation. The word “for” at the beginning of verse 14 is a connecting contraction that joins verse 13 with verse 14 and thus verses 14-25 are the explanation of the answer, in verse 13, “that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.”
I feel sorry for those who have the same character traits as those of the man in Romans 7:14-25. Possibly they believe Christians must obey the Mosaic law, because that is what this man is struggling with.
Paul starts verse 14 with the law being spiritual. In verse 16 he says the law is good. In verse 22 he says he delights in the law and that it is the law of his mind. And in verse 25 he says he serves the law of God.
Scriptures that refute the fallacy that the man of Romans 7:14-25 is a true born of God believer:
VERSE 14 ” but I am carnal”
Romans 8:6-7 “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
VERSE 14 “sold under sin”
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.”
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Romans 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
VERSE 15 “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.”
Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
VERSE 16 “If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.”
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
VERSE 17 “But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.”
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
VERSE 18 “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.”
1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you are disqualified.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
VERSE 19 “For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
VERSE 20 “Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.”
1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Micah 3:4 Then they will cry to the Lord,
But He will not hear them;
He will even hide His face from them at that time,
Because they have been evil in their deeds.
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
VERSE 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
VERSE 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Romans 10:4 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
VERSE 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
John 8:34-36 34 “Jesus answered them, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.'”
Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter
VERSE 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
1 Peter 2:9 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light
VERSE 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 Corinthians 15:56-57 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks for taking the time to share your insights Mike!